The secret lives of storytellers: Deesha Philyaw explores new territory
How the Secret Lives of Church Ladies author is reshaping cultural narratives through a new podcast.
Deesha Philyaw burst onto the literary scene in 2020 with her debut short story collection, The Secret Lives of Church Ladies. The book, which explores the hidden desires and complexities of Black women's lives, became a critical darling, winning the PEN/Faulkner Award for Fiction, the Story Prize, and a Los Angeles Times Book Prize. It was also a finalist for the National Book Award.
Now, Philyaw is bringing her storytelling prowess to the world of podcasting. Her new show, Reckon True Stories, which she co-hosts with author Kiese Laymon, delves into the stories we tell and how they impact culture. It’s a natural progression for a writer whose work has always centered on uncovering the narratives that shape our understanding of ourselves and others. Season One guests include names like Roxane Gay, Imani Perry, Alexander Chee, Minda Honey, Hanif Abdurraqib, and Samantha Irby.
As Philyaw launches Reckon True Stories through Ursa Story Company, a podcast production company she co-founded, she’s also anticipating the 2025 release of her debut novel, The True Confessions of First Lady Freeman.
In this edition of Depth Perception, we speak with Philyaw about her transition into podcasting, the themes that drive her work, and what listeners can expect from Reckon True Stories. —Parker Molloy
Your new podcast, Reckon True Stories, delves into the impact of essays and culture on our lives. Can you share what inspired you and Kiese to take on this project and what listeners can expect?
Kiese and I first met as fans of each other's work, and that fandom blossomed into a friendship. For years, we said we wanted to do something together, something around our shared love for writing and for Black folks, and our shared commitment to support and embrace fellow Black writers and others who are marginalized in publishing. The idea for that "something" crystallized into the idea for a podcast, but our first attempt didn’t pan out. Once I got involved with Ursa Story and we wanted to expand our focus beyond short stories to nonfiction, Kiese was our only choice to co-host with me.
From the episodes, listeners can expect Kiese and me talking about the short- and longform nonfiction writers and works that move us, excite us, and challenge us. And that move the culture. We talk craft, but in a way that we hope people will find useful and interesting. And we laugh. A lot! Sometimes it’s just the two of us, and sometimes we have guests. We talk with our guests about writing and about their lives beyond writing.
How did you decide on the guests for season one? What qualities or perspectives were you looking for?
They're all writers we love who are doing interesting things on the page. We didn’t really have any other criteria. Along with our producers, we made a huge list of essays, articles, writers, and books that meet that criteria. And that list is enough for at least seven or eight seasons of episodes. But we decided to launch with writers that at least one of us already had a connection to or rapport with, and we wanted to curate a season that covered a range of topics, voices, and styles.
SPJ names Long Shadow the year’s best narrative podcast
Last week, Long Shadow: Rise of the American Far Right, was named Best Narrative Podcast at the Sigma Delta Chi Awards. The Society of Professional Journalists’ annual honors, which have been around for 85 years, acknowledge the best in journalism to promote “the free flow of information vital to a well-informed citizenry.”
Long Shadow “does what podcasts are uniquely situated to do,” says the SPJ. "[It] allows the creators to take a long look at events and pick out pathways and threads that may otherwise be lost in the moment, but with the perspective of time glow brightly when studied.”
Hosted by Pulitzer-finalist historian and author Garrett Graff and produced by Long Lead, Long Shadow: Rise of the American Far Right explores how, over decades, the U.S. government failed to confront the threat of domestic terror, leading to a modern extremist movement that ultimately rioted on the steps of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
How has your own storytelling evolved since the publication of The Secret Lives of Church Ladies?
I’m more apt to take risks now, to experiment. I feel more confident on the page, although that confidence does not translate into ease. There's less self doubt, but just as much wrangling of characters, trying to figure out their story, and what’s at stake for them.
When selecting essays, memoirs, or journalistic pieces to discuss on the podcast, are there specific elements you look for?
I can’t speak for Kiese, but it’s purely informal and a matter of taste for me. I bore easily. So something slow and quiet probably isn’t going to catch my attention. I don’t like works where the writer is so obviously trying to write like someone else because somebody told them that’s what will make them a serious writer. Most people can’t pull off emulation infused with something fresh that’s uniquely them. Write in the style of [a different writer], but let me know you’re in there too. Otherwise, I can just go read [a different writer].
I love works that play with form and structure. I also like subversion and provocation, and I love to be surprised, uncomfortable even. But I really dislike provocation for the sake of provocation. There are some writers who provoke me in a bad way, but they are such good storytellers that I have to hand it to them. They have a great hook, they make me curious, their nonfiction is populated with compelling characters and scenes; they’re almost convincing. These works almost always embrace a worldview that isn’t justice-seeking or progressive. They punch down. I’m more interested in writing that checks all those storytelling boxes and reveals that the writer has a heart.
“I love works that play with form and structure. I also like subversion and provocation, and I love to be surprised, uncomfortable even.”
Looking ahead, what are your aspirations for the podcast? Are there any specific topics or themes you are particularly excited to explore in future episodes?
I’m so excited to spark cultural conversations about writing that invites people in rather than counts them out. Already, we’ve heard from people, published and not published, who said they took notes while listening to the first episode, they returned to a piece of writing they'd abandoned, or they started a new piece. I’m excited to get people talking about revision and writing as a process. I'm looking forward to our audience hearing from our guests and being inspired and entertained. I want listeners to be encouraged to take their writing more seriously, even as we’re laughing our asses off.
We're just now thinking about season two, so nothing's final, but I want to talk about what's stopping so many people from writing, or finishing, nonfiction projects.
What advice would you give to aspiring writers and storytellers who wish to create impactful nonfiction work that resonates with audiences and contributes to cultural conversations?
Understand that creating this work is a process, and that process includes revision, and that it's all worth it. Try to find joy in the process, in discovering the story or stories beneath a situation. Understand that there’s no formula. There are certain protocols in publishing, sure, but in writing and revising and telling the story you want to tell in the way you want to tell it, there’s no formula. And the best advice I’ve ever been given: Don't worry so much about getting your writing published; worry about getting better at writing.
Further reading and and listening from Deesha Philyaw
Reckon True Stories (Ursa Story Company, premieres July 9, 2024)
“Love 1992: A Catechism*” (Fractured Lit, Nov. 16, 2023)
“Snap” (Pipe Wrench, June/July 2021)
The Secret Lives of Church Ladies (West Virginia University Press, September 2020)